Curse

GloryFox · Feb 27, 2007, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

posted by Kuldebar Valiturus
I truly can't fathom how you feel so strongly about this article.

Because of its generalization of PvE as a whole when PvP players make similar mistakes in skill choices [check out RA for details]. It identifies PvE’s as less informed when in fact many PvE’rs such as myself are highly informed and see the destruction of the PvE experience through the lack of creativity of the PvP mindset.

To simplify the topic a bit and include PvE into PvP, two things are needed.
1) Get rid of all rank emotes.
2) Separate competitive level GvG from casual fun GvG.

All skills have their uses and to only state why a skill is bad for PvP and leaving the mental assertion that PvE’s use these skills and are therefore inferior, when stating the obvious is both rude and condescending to the average PvE player. It does not leave a favorable impression of those skills for PvE or PvP when there are real uses for these skills in a PvE environment.

Former Ruling · Feb 27, 2007, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Overall it wasn't as bad as some of their previous articles.

Some problems though, Mostly him confusing Noob to Non-noob transition with PvE to PvP transition. This is where the arrogant attitude says up - throughout the article he associates the common actions of "noobs" and new players with the overall PvE community. This is exactly what Ensign said...

The article does barely anything to teach anyone about coming from PvE to PvP, which was the focus. It is a decent article telling some new players what not to play ANYWHERE (pve or pvp) though...

Shmanka · Feb 27, 2007, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skuld

I agree with Ensign 100%.

I do as well but something was missed. I read the article for a fifth time just trying to justify why he chose the words he did, and look for a reason as to why he was so insanely blatant and bland about the entire thing. As I said earlier my "left foot" could write something better but then I am starting to see something different. What he did was two different but very good things.

The first was being basic, even having this "wide brush" of players put into one category it is true for the most part experienced in PvE or not there is a difference in skill level compared to the whole of experienced PvP. Not only that but the fact that if he did go into detail about a specific play group then he is anihilating every other PvE based player. I see the reason he used this term and now I come to agree with it, but yet he failed to give pure detail.

The second thing I am starting to like about this article is that if your planning to purchase the game and looked over the article for a quick glance to see how detailed the game would be if I had read that and was completely new I would be thrilled to open up the box. Even though he did not have the good detail all the experienced players on this thread do have, he did the main thing every piece of writing wants to do, KISS. (Keep It Simple Stupid, or so my theatre company tells me)

I see both sides of the coin after reading it thoroughly a few times I suggest more do the same, he did accomplish a priori yet left the people who had already bought the game in the dust. Guess which part I still don't like.

Shmanka · Feb 27, 2007, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

To simplify the topic a bit and include PvE into PvP, two things are needed.
1) Get rid of all rank emotes.
2) Separate competitive level GvG from casual fun GvG.

This is the most ridiculous statement.

Getting rid of rank emotes? Why? Cause someone roflcopter'd you?

Your two suggestions are weak beyond belief. Seperate Casual from competitive? Have you heard of Scrimmages? Alliance Battles? Random Arena?
Competitive Missions? There is nothing abosolutely competitive and shows the relevance of pvp and pve transition. There is a reason why Kurzick/Luxon donation Titles do not add to Balthazaar Faction total.

Mitchel · Feb 27, 2007, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Great article, not insulting like HA int dis 1. He should have mentiond that Remove Hex sees some use by Mesmers in GvG's sometimes.

Zorglubb · Feb 27, 2007, 07:16 PM // 19:16

A lot of the griefing in GW comes from PvP players, either in the PvP areas (which are just horrid places of hatemongering and misplaced-elitism), or when they play PvE and keep aggravating everyone by LOL'ing at skillsets of new players, or go banana because the group went 5 meters to the west of the perfect line.
If PvP players where more... normal, GW would be a much nicer place IMO.

So this "state of the game" sounded to me like more like "whinings of a PvP griefer".

Str0b0 · Feb 27, 2007, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Wow if he got any more condescending I'd want to take a swing at him. I think the attitude right there is why you don't see a lot of transition. People like that abound in PvP, in PvE as well but not to the same extent and you know it. To me this is just another condescending PvPer trying to mask his insults behind the benevolent mission statement of "Helping out all us poor PvE people who don't know the joys of PvP play." Stuff it I say. I have to agree this is hands down the worst State of the Game article ever. They need to have some sort of editorial process over there at ANet and if they do have one it needs to be overhauled big time before more tripe like this gets published on their site.

Not trying to be rude or insulting, but this is a personal peeve of mine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuldebar Valiturus

.You seem to have some comprehension problems yourself, irregardless of my typos and spelling errors.

regardless. Not irregardless. There is no such word and if there was it wouldn't make sense in the context you are using it in. IR is a negative prefix LESS is a negative suffix. Put them together and you have a double negative in one single word.

Perkunas · Feb 27, 2007, 07:31 PM // 19:31

I am sitting here looking at the wall map that came with my Prophesies game. I got the game 11/2005. Originally there were 8 PvP arenas 1 in each area. Assuming you came to postsearing at approximately level 5 and progressed through the game as originally intended, 1 area, 1 mission at a time, you could use the armor and skills aquired in the area to 'practice' pvp in the arena. This probably worked great in the early days of the game. Now 2 years into the game, when you sear, buy run to Droks, get the armor and get the skills for the high end area, and return to Ascalon arena, and wipe the noobs out. Getting wiped was/is not my idea of fun. That is why I spend 99.99% of my time in PvE.

If you can restore the 'along the way' training areas, with restrictions on the armor and skills that can be used there, (only those that can be aquired up to that point) this might bring back a more balanced learning curve for the transition from PvE to PvP.

frojack · Feb 27, 2007, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Former Ruling

Overall it wasn't as bad as some of their previous articles.

Some problems though, Mostly him confusing Noob to Non-noob transition with PvE to PvP transition. This is where the arrogant attitude says up - throughout the article he associates the common actions of "noobs" and new players with the overall PvE community. This is exactly what Ensign said...

The article does barely anything to teach anyone about coming from PvE to PvP, which was the focus. It is a decent article telling some new players what not to play ANYWHERE (pve or pvp) though...

Exactly...

More to the point, the reason this article is such a big deal for some people is that it's on the 'official' website. Almost endorsing this attitude that PvE players are 'lesser' than PvP players.

While true in many cases, generalisations are dangerous. You make them on fan-sites not official ones. It's just asking for trouble...

Lonesamurai · Feb 27, 2007, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

Exactly...

More to the point, the reason this article is such a big deal for some people is that it's on the 'official' website. Almost endorsing this attitude that PvE players are 'lesser' than PvP players.

While true in many cases, generalisations are dangerous. You make them on fan-sites not official ones. It's just asking for trouble...

Thank you, totally what i was trying to point out (but was too incenced by the article to articulate properly)

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 27, 2007, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

Wow if he got any more condescending I'd want to take a swing at him. I think the attitude right there is why you don't see a lot of transition.

I think the attitude of the people reacting to the State of the Game article is more pertinent to the issue at hand.

Indeed, "the Guild Wars community is deeply polarized around PvP and PvE".

I have parsed the article and I don't conclude that it is condescending. Since being offended is largely subjective process, I won't dispute that people can be offended.

But, in the case of the article, I think the fall out surrounding it speaks more of the posters on this forum than it does about the "most common mistakes PvE players make when trying PvP, as well as basic concepts a lot of beginner players don't immediately grasp".

It's extraordinary that any experienced player can come away from reading an article about beginner PvP and feel offended.

I find it all rather silly. It smacks of politics, not rationality.

Bread Fan · Feb 27, 2007, 07:37 PM // 19:37

I think he nailed it right on the head with that article. Notice how when some skills get nerfed PvE players revolt. They are used to playing the same skills over and over again without actually understanding game balance, ie counters etc. I noticed somewhere in this forum it was mentioned about PvE hard mode. Although I never bothered to actually read it but could you imagine if PvE monsters had migraine mesmers that would actually cover hex with interrupts? Instead of the monsters attacking first thing in aggro they would actually go for the monks or other softies. I used to PvE and it was bad enough trying to get blind removed as a warrior while in a pug if the monk even bothered to bring some sort of condition removal.

Seriously you guys need to get the sand out of your vaginas over this article. I think it was well written and covered what happens when players try to make the transformation from pve to pvp. Strobo even goes off saying he would take a swing at him.....haha...Ahh look at that bright yellow ball in the sky, smell that fresh air. Get out more.

zwei2stein · Feb 27, 2007, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Went try bit of RA (ineptitude screwing sin spikers, etc, P4F)

Every other monk usued healing breeze at some moment, seen mending-dolyak wammo, etc... seem Me/E who obviously read that article as he used mending, healing breeze, remove hex and firestorm.

From what i gather, author had really bad day in RA (IW mesmer trying 'n failing, all kinds of terrible monks and wammos ...) and had to vent.

WTB PvE-2-PvP article by Ensign or someone.

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 27, 2007, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

Not trying to be rude or insulting, but this is a personal peeve of mine.

regardless. Not irregardless. There is no such word and if there was it wouldn't make sense in the context you are using it in. IR is a negative prefix LESS is a negative suffix. Put them together and you have a double negative in one single word.

That's very special, but I never claimed I would never use non-standard english when posting on an internet forum. So, I tend to view this comment as another snipe that has nothing to do with the State of the Game article.

Str0b0 · Feb 27, 2007, 08:24 PM // 20:24

What was covered in that article though is common knowledge. We all know that those monk skills are inadequate for PvP and most of them inadequate in PvE as well. The very nature of the article is condescending. It would be like me walking up to you and saying." You know what? They sky is blue and cows go moo and puppies go arf." You know these things, everyone knows these things from the time they are 3. The immediate assumption that most people would make is that whoever spoke to them in such a manner must think they are an idiot. By that same token the article itself, in explaining such blatantly obvious things to a population that is not nearly as woefully misinformed as the author believes them to be, is insulting to the intelligence of the average PvE player.

Your post above though illustrates my point. Apparently you are aware that irregardless is not a word and is not proper English. My explaining it to you was viewed as a snipe because it insults your intelligence. It's something you already know and therefore the implication is that I think you're stupid.

Acidic Won · Feb 27, 2007, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Went try bit of RA (ineptitude screwing sin spikers, etc, P4F)

Every other monk usued healing breeze at some moment, seen mending-dolyak wammo, etc... seem Me/E who obviously read that article as he used mending, healing breeze, remove hex and firestorm.

From what i gather, author had really bad day in RA (IW mesmer trying 'n failing, all kinds of terrible monks and wammos ...) and had to vent.

WTB PvE-2-PvP article by Ensign or someone.

I think you need to read the article on why a Me/E can't use the stated MONK skills. SotG articles aren't really taken seriously by PvPers anyways. Stop QQing.

Kuldebar Valiturus · Feb 27, 2007, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

What was covered in that article though is common knowledge. We all know that those monk skills are inadequate for PvP and most of them inadequate in PvE as well. The very nature of the article is condescending. It would be like me walking up to you and saying." You know what? They sky is blue and cows go moo and puppies go arf." You know these things, everyone knows these things from the time they are 3. The immediate assumption that most people would make is that whoever spoke to them in such a manner must think they are an idiot. By that same token the article itself, in explaining such blatantly obvious things to a population that is not nearly as woefully misinformed as the author believes them to be, is insulting to the intelligence of the average PvE player.

...common knowledge...everyone knows these things...blatantly obvious things...

You know those things and veteran Guild Wars players may know these things, but is quite the stretch to say "beginner players" will "know" these supposedly self evident things.

This is the equivalent of choosing to read a preschool alphabet primer and then loudly declare in outrage that "everyone knows this stuff!"

Quote:

In this article I'll try to point out the most common mistakes PvE players make when trying PvP, as well as basic concepts a lot of beginner players don't immediately grasp.-Adam Sunstrom

gone · Feb 27, 2007, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bread Fan

Notice how when some skills get nerfed PvE players revolt.

notice how pvper's ask for skills to get nerfed? ask yourself Why...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bred Fan

They are used to playing the same skills over and over again without actually understanding game balance, ie counters etc.

LoL-- abused skills in pvp = nerf for ALL, that is why.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bred Fan

Instead of the monsters attacking first thing in aggro they would actually go for the monks or other softies.

LoL-- go PvE and see what happens...holding aggro is quite a talent these days

FoxBat · Feb 27, 2007, 09:07 PM // 21:07

If he replaced all references of "PvE players" with "novice/new pvp players" there would be no issue. He could still talk about things that tend to be PvE mistakes without being as blatant.

The people who this article is aimed at won't be offended, of course. But any half-decent PvE player will be offended at both his tone and the implications of skills like healing breeze, mending, etc. being used by such players.

Have to add, GvG is already seperated by casual/competitive. Guilds with weak ratings are matched against each other, and the ladder is now seperate from tournaments.

Chris Blackstar · Feb 27, 2007, 09:18 PM // 21:18

If this Adam Sunstrom speaks for Anet, then the poeple of Anet are the biggest jerks around, the artical makes me want to PvP less, not more. I read it and basicly my grasp is that he is saying PvE is for beginners, but PvP is for the pro's.

Why would I have to unlearn what I have learned in PvE to play PvP, infact I played both versions of the game, while playing the game as a whole, your artical Adam is a bunch of eletist crap.

Serously, I think Anet needs to appolgize for that artical, I find most thing not to be offense, in fact I hate when people feel offended, I guess now I know what it feels like. It's kind of bad when you enjoy playing a game, and the Dev's team or the complany spoke person says you SUCK because you fit into a catigory (PvE), and they want more people to play PvP, so they down grade you for it.

I say PvEers should boycott Anets products from now on in, all new chapters and existing chapters, or atleast send them a message that we as PvEers have had enough with being forced to play PvP.